How many ranks can shoot over TF? Asked by Vince Cholewa, 24 March 2025

Help! Who can shoot? Here are two elements of bow behind a TF. Can one, two or none of them shoot? The bullet points on page 34 under valid targets have me a little confused.

The first bullet says the second rank can shoot because it is lined up directly behind the first element, is of the same command, has the same weapons and is not in difficult going.

The fourth bullet says TF or troops manning them cannot be shot over except from a higher PF. Does this mean the TF stops both ranks shooting (i.e. TF cannot be shot over) or stops the second rank shooting (i.e. troops manning them cannot be shot over)?

I’m keen for your thoughts as this has me scratching my head. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/824840264342234/posts/2860337604125813

John Gildea

An interesting one Vincent. I would say the first rank are “ manning” the TF so can shoot. I would normally have said the second row can aid shooting as well as I’ve always considered the not being shot over applies to troops shooting at troops manning TF and not shooting from the TF. However I’m not sure now on the second rank given the specific dot point!

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Vincent Cholewa

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John Gildea I know! I have a l o n g term project to do a series of armies from 1500 AD, all with connected histories, from the Baltic to the Black Seas. For one of them at that date, shooting from behind TF is important and I was fardling around with lists on Sunday evening. Hence, my questions.

Neil Williamson

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I think you need to email Andrew Bennetts on this one.

I think you could get various interpretations. You might also take into account the 3rd bullet where only a single rank can fire from a PF.

Andrew will put it to the Committee if he can't answer himself

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Vincent Cholewa

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Many thanks Neil Williamson. Andrew Bennetts you view would be?

John Edmundson

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Do you want me to post this to the dbmmlist Vincent?

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Vincent Cholewa

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John Edmundson if would like to, that would be helpful 

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John Edmundson

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Vincent Cholewa I'll do it when I'm on my break. :^)

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Vincent Cholewa

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John Edmundson thank you 

Ion A Dowman

What is the purpose of the TF? To protect the shooters. OF COURSE the leading bow can shoot, and OF COURSE the rear element can add its support.

The PF situation is different, probably due to the lack of depth available to defenders.

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Vincent Cholewa

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Many thanks Ion A Dowman, I thought that too until I read the fourth bullet point and that added confusion.

Silly to be having this conversation. Does anyone think the writers intended to restrict missile troops up against and protected by stakes and other temporary fortifications?

I think these are two different uses of shooting over and bullets four and five should be read as indented and further qualifying bullet three.

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Andrew Bennetts

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Russell Briant A minor point but for the avoidance of doubt, Stakes are not TF. They are Portable Obstacles that do not block line of sight or offer cover from shooting. TF represent palisades and the like that DO block line of sight and provide some protection from shooting

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Russell Briant

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Andrew Bennetts nothing minor about that point at all….

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John Gildea

Andrew Bennetts a good point I hadn’t thought of

Vincent Cholewa

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Russell Briant my question came from musing about Post-Mongol Russians shooting from behind gulay gorod. I know in close combat they fight in only one rank when defending TF but when I looked at shooting the bullet points confused me.

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Kenneth Chan

Vincent Cholewa gulay gorod is TF under the rules so the TF bullet will be applicable. Whereas stakes are PO thus different rules

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Vincent Cholewa

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Kenneth Chan I aree and that is my question. How many ranks can shoot over TF you are defending? We seem to be getting to an answer of one rank.

Andrew Bennetts

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P34 tells us that "...a single rank of Bows or Shot can shoot from a PF [over friends below them]". By extension therefore I believe that it is possible to shoot from TF. The question then becomes how many ranks?

The first bullet states that "A contiguous 2nd rank element.....can shoot over [the front rank]....but only as an aiding shooter.....". So the second rank is definitely "shooting over" the first rank.

However, as per the 4th bullet; "TF.....or troops manning them cannot be shot over, except from higher PF". In my mind this last applies both to aiding shooters and to enemy shooting at the troops manning the TF.

So, my initial thinking is that only a single rank can shoot from a TF, which is consistent with what is explicitly stated for PF.

All this said, I make no claim to be an authority and so I’ll be interested to read different views either here or on the other forums this question has been posted.

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Vincent Cholewa

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Andrew Bennetts many thanks for your reply. I checked the commentary before posting and didn’t see anything there. Is it a topic worth raising with the committee that drafts the commentary?

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Andrew Bennetts

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Vincent Cholewa Lawrence Greaves (coordinator of the Commentary) has already responded to your sharing it on the DBMM FB Group so he is aware of it and John Edmundson has posted it to the general DBMM IO Group. Let's see whether there is a general consensus at all and then take it from there as required. Definitely an intriguing wrinkle I'd never thought about before 

Andrew Bennetts

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A further consideration to bear in mind is that Bw manning a fortification already get a +3 when shot at (except by Artillery, WWg(S) and Shp(X)). Allowing Bw on a TF to also have a +1 for a supporting rank would make the factors for Bw exchanging shots across a TF 6:3 in favour of the Defender. Is this too great?

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Vincent Cholewa

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Andrew Bennetts it depends what side of the fence you are on 😆