Light horse contacted two elements of blades front and flank. Can the rear element of blades turn to face? It can never provide rare support against light horse.
We played that it could not turn and then the combat was a draw. Can the rear element of blades now turn in its own bound?
The third question, where in the rules does it say an element cannot break off from close combat? I’m sure it’s in there somewhere but for the life of me I can’t find it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/824840264342234/posts/3485916378234596
Pretty sure elements in contact with the enemy can't choose to break off.
Philip Gates thank you, so am I but we could not find it in the rules!
Philip Gates Not sure it's explicit. But you can't move backwards while in close combat (TZ rules p32 last bullet point). And since all you could do in a TZ is go straight back this covers it.
Philip Gates In v1 it was explicit you can't break off from close combat. In v2 that was taken out to make room for something else, it being implicitly prohibited by the TZ rules if you are in close combat front to front. What nobody spotted at the time was this allows you to break off from a close combat against an enemy flank or rear, or if the enemy is in close combat against your own flank or rear, but not front.
In the OP here, the second blade is not in close combat because the LH is not correctly lined up on its flank, so even in v1 it could move to its rear, although not very far, as it's not allowed to contact an enemy corner, which its rear corner would do as it went past. Also it can't line up in close combat against the flanking element because friends in close combat prevent it lining up.
Lawrence Greaves thank you so much, that is a most comprehensive reply. It also means we played it correctly, without actually knowing where in the rules it said so!
As it turned out, in the first bound, when the LH contacted the Bd, being S saved the Bd and made the combat a draw. In the following bound, the LH again rolled one higher than the Bd and that time destroyed both elements.
When you contact the flank the rear blade turns to face, and your light horse slides across
Dirk Heinsius I don't believe that's true unless you explicitly contact the rear blade corner to corner. The rear element is in the TZ of the lower LH so does not turn as it lines up with the TZ most directly to its front. Not 100% clear but the TZ rules seem to determine what happens.
Dirk Heinsius and
Barry Norris, yes! We got ourselves tangled here. The line about turning if not giving rear support seem to imply it could turn despite the TZ. We were confused!
Dirk Heinsius there is no legal contact (front corner to front corner) between the flanking LH and the 2nd Bd.
As the flanking LH is contacting the full side edge of the second Bd, both Bd would be destroyed if the LH win.
Menderes Ince thank you. That was confusing was why the second rank of blade do not turn to the flank as they are not providing rear rank support, and cannot against light horse. The answer will be somewhere on the rules, but where?
Vincent Cholewa The rules say when you do turn, which is when you have been "so" contacted (normally front corner to front corner; only if this is prevented by enemy or terrain etc it can be covering the whole flank edge instead, see p 33). The second blade has not been so contacted, so it doesn't turn.
The rear element could turn if the LH moved into corner to corner contact with it. Then you'd have two combats with the lower blade at -1 for can't recall. Otherwise, as shown, it's one combat. The rear element is in the combat as its flank is fully covered (see moving into Close Combat p33, Flank edge). Further evidence is that both elements are destroyed if the front element loses.
Barry Norris HAving your flank edge covered only counts as close combat if the attacker is obstructed from lining up front corner to front corner by: impassable terrain, and enemy element, or a battlefield edge. In this case none of those apply so the second rank of blades is not in close combat.
So the claim here is that mounted other than knights and possibly Cam(S) (and LH against PS(O)) can never hard flank foot in two or more ranks because the second rank of foot never provides support. Instead the rear rank turns and the mounted troops must slide away from the hard flank to face the turned rank. That does not accord with how we have played the game in my view. Interested in the view of others on this.
Barry Norris I think everyone now agrees with established practice and not with this claim. The second rank does not turn.
What a bunch of flankers! Do i get half points for this buaf?
Alastair Duncan If you place it in the corner of the table then you just pay for the 2 walls plus a gate. Hope that helps.
Barry Norris
I stand corrected. p26/27 of the commentary is explicit on this (although I wish the diagrams were better). The rear rank turns to face in the original situation since the blade cannot provide rear support. Legionaries will be happy. My light horse less so.
Barry Norris No, p 26/27 of the commentary is for when you line up (front corner to front corner) with the flank of the second rank element.
IF you line up (front corner to front corner) with the flank of the front rank element, as per the OP, nobody turns.
Yeah. I had wondered about that. I originally agreed with this - see my original musings on this. Effectively then if you contact the second rank that can support, you are deemed to be contacting the front rank. Not sure why it didn't just say that. And that accords with how I have played the game these many years.
Barry Norris after a decade of DBMM 2.1 we are still working through it! I think the issues are the somewhat idiosyncratic language style and ordering of information. After my more than 50 years of wargaming these are the best rules to play and probably the hardest to read!
P.33 explains contact with the enemy’s front, flank, rear and corner. The second rank of blade does not meet the definition of any of that contact.
P.35, close combat section starts by referring back to page 33. The immediately following paragraph, about turning to flank, then says an element “that has been so contacted“. The second element of Blade was not “so contacted“ in any of the ways described on page 33. So it is excluded and cannot turn when the light horse first contacts its flank.
In the following bound, the second rank blade cannot use a PIP to turn because the front rank element of blade is in the way, preventing it lining up with the light horse.
