A question about mounted infantry: asked by Vince Cholewa, 21 November 2022

 A question about mounted infantry:

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“They count as foot when … making a tactical move.”

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“… mounted infantry’s mounts are permanently removed when:”

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“Their owners make a tactical or outcome move unless remounting …”

Does the combination of these two sections mean that if mounted infantry cannot march they move at

foot speed and then cannot remount?

One thing I am trying to work out is how archers move at cavalry speed, shoot, then move as cavalry again.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/824840264342234/posts/2222603477899232/

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  Barry Norris

  My read, for what it's worth, is that the archers can move, dismount, shoot, remount and move provided they have additional bases depicting the horse holders and they do not make a non-march move (including recoiling) while dismounted (and a bunch of other disqualifying things like having the horse holders shot at). Of course since they move as marchers they need to be outside 400p to remount and march but they could conceivably kill the elements stopping them then remount. Or they could ignore skirmishers etc. In general it's most likely that they will stop and shoot then continue on foot.

  

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    Vincent Cholewa

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    Barry Norris many thanks. Part of the issue is elements can’t march and shoot. However, people seem to play that mounted archers can make a mounted move then shoot.

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  • Barry Norris

    True. They can't shoot in the bound they march. Not sure whether they need to dismount at the end of the march move or whether they can stay mounted until the following bound then dismount and shoot (which might allow them to continue marching if the enemy withdrew). Don't use them enough myself.

    

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      Vincent Cholewa

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      Barry Norris they automatically dismount at the end of their bound if they were mounted and then automatically remount at the start of their next bound.

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    • Barry Norris

      Vincent Cholewa Ah. Makes sense.

      

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  Neil Williamson

  My take on it is that they can't do what you are wanting Vince.

  The dismounting counts as a move. In the paragraph below the bullet points, "mounting or dismounting expends an entire 0 length single tactical or march move..." the automatic to me means no pip expenditure as on page 27.

  If they move to within shooting range they have to make a tactical move to dismount and shoot and therefore lose their mounts.

  They could dismount outside 400p as a march move, scare the enemy away then remount. Or conceivably, eliminate all enemy that move towards them through shooting in the enemy bound then remount. But all of that is very unlikely.

  I don't think they are as good as you think they are on the initial read. They can move to where you want them quite quickly and then they are on foot.

  I would call an umpire over if a player considers making a mounted move and shooting.

  

  

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    Vincent Cholewa

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    Neil Williamson many thanks, Neil. Less what I want and more questions about what my opponents might want.

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  • Barry Norris

    Neil Williamson I think that the requirement to use a move only applies to dismounting mounted troops not to mounted infantry (who appear to dismount for "free" at the end of their move). You could in theory start just over 400p away and march move 240… 

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  Andrew Crampton

  They only way they could move at cav speed, shoot and then move at cav speed again is if they stopped. Waited for the enemy to close and the shot all the enemy so they we free to march again.

  

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  Andrew Bennetts

  FWIW, my thinking is the same as Barry's. Mounted Infantry provided with mounts move as if Cv(I) if horsed, Cm if on camels. They counts as foot when shooting, shot at, in close combat or when making a tactical move. Dismounting is 'automatic' which I take to mean as not requiring a tactical move, it just happens 'automatically' as required. So Mounted Infantry archers can march as Cv(I), ending within shooting range providing they start their final march outside of 400p. They cannot shoot that bound as they have marched. In the following (enemy) bound, if they have a target they must shoot at it. If in their next bound, there is no enemy stopping them starting a march then they can march again as Cv(I). In all likelihood though, the only move they will be able to make will be a Tactical Move and so their mounts will be removed. If however they remain stationary, they would retain their mounts but would still be eligible to shoot should there be a target. Hope this helps.......

  

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    Vincent Cholewa

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    Andrew Bennetts many thanks, that is my reading or the rules, too. However, it has at times been played differently, allowing mounted archers to move more than 160p and shoot.

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      Andrew Bennetts

      Vincent Cholewa I think its pretty clear that mounted infantry archers can only move at Cv/Cm speed if marching, in which case they cannot shoot that bound. I would challenge anyone trying to move mounted & shoot

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• Anthony Reardon

  I think the only way to move at Cv speed (bound 1), dismount and shoot (bound 2), remount (bound 3) and then move again (bound 4) would be to be bow-armed Cv (rather than Mtd Bw). Would take time, PIPs and an excuse for dismounting though.  Have you considered doing it with a couple of rLhF to get at, say, Ps on a difficult hill? P.S. I'd agree with earlier comments regarding Mtd Bw.

  

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    Vincent Cholewa

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    Anthony Reardon thank you for commenting, though I disagree. Mounted archers can march bound 1 and automatically dismount. Bound 2 they shoot and automatically mount. Bound 3 they march again. No PIPs for mounting and dismounting.

    My question is about what I have seen people do, being move mounted archers at cavalry speed and shoot in the same bound. I don’t think the rules allow that.

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    • Andrew Crampton

      Vincent Cholewa Troops who march cannot shoot (p34). So no, they cannot move Cv distance and shoot.

      

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    • Anthony Reardon

      Vincent Cholewa I was agreeing with you (and others) - mounted archers (Mtd Bw) cannot move at cavalry speed and shoot in the same bound. Perhaps rather awkwardly, I was making a comment on bow-armed Cv.

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  Philip Gates

  Correct

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• Graham Starkey

  There is on thing in that section I find strange. It is clear when mounted foot count at Cav(I) and when they count as foot. It is also clear when mounts are removed. It does not say that they stop being treated at Cav(I) when the mounts are removed.

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    Andrew Bennetts

    Graham Starkey Once mounts are removed, I'd say its pretty clear they now count as 'unmounted'. To try and argue otherwise is a bit of a stretch I feel.........

    

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    • Neil Williamson

      Andrew Bennetts Rules as Written though Andrew, not rules as interpreted.

      Whilst we are on that, could you give your valued interpretation on what this means in the first paragraph. "Dismounting by individuals when looting, attacking beached vessels , or in camel fighting or a cavalry melee is covered by mounted factors and outcomes."

      I expect an answer that doesn't contradict any other rules of course.

      Good luck. 

      I'm sure this will have swayed the outcome of many a battle.

      

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      Andrew Bennetts

      Neil Williamson An element represents 250 odd individuals. In the course of 'looting, attacking beached vessels, or in camel fighting or a cavalry melee' some of these individuals may become dismounted (voluntarily or otherwise). This is included in 'mounted factors and outcomes' so not represented separately. For an easily accessible historical example, check descriptions of the cavalry fight at Cannae. 

      

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    • Neil Williamson

      Andrew Bennetts Congratulations! I'll award a pass with merit for that one. It is a true politicians answer. It answers the question without committing you to anything and nobody is any the wiser. 

      

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  Julian Hannam

  [cue incredulous sarcasm] Wow! I’m so pleased this is straightforward, well done for keeping the rules accessible, a great success.

  

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    Vincent Cholewa

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    Julian Hannam the rulebook is not always easy to read but the rules do seem to be there, somewhere! Hence the occasional question. When we do suss out the answers the tabletop game is good 

    

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    Andrew Bennetts

    Julian Hannam While its easy to mock 'Barkerese', the real issue is the (sadly sometimes willful) mis-reading of what is written, a problem that nearly all wargames rules face. Indeed, I had my first introduction to ADLG at the weekend, a rule set ofte… 

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      Vincent Cholewa

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      Andrew Bennetts wargamers! 

      

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    Julian Hannam

    Andrew Bennetts well said gentlemen! (hat then swept from head in a bow)

    I was showing some frustration of course as Keith V Trye and I have recently had an opportunity to look at these rules with Ordonnance Archers and it was a struggle for me - Keith was very patient. And of course Wargamers do tend to blindness when it suits them.

    

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    Vincent Cholewa

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    Julian Hannam by one of those quirks of fate, my question arose as I pondered an upcoming game against an Ordonnance army 

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  Vincent Cholewa

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  Thank you for everyone’s replies and discussion. The point we seem to have reached is:

  If mounted archers move at cavalry speed they are marching and so cannot shoot. … 

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  • Lawrence Greaves

    Vincent Cholewa Correct. And they can always shoot in the enemy bound.

    

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